Are you sure that they we're just venting or complaining? I mean, "countless" is a lot. I know lots of moms and dads, but I've never heard anything remotely similar to that once. I have heard a lot of complaining, though.
I think this is something else I need to write about. Parents will bitch and moan with other parents, sometimes never saying anything positive, because they understand that everyone in the conversation is on the same page. They understand that they all love their kids and wouldn't give them up for anything. When talking to non-parents it can suddenly change. The complaints disappear and all they want to talk about is how great it is to be a parent and gush about their kids. Maybe the moms you know assumed they weren't going to be taken literally when they said "I'm gonna throw this fuckin' guy out a window if he bites my boob one more time..."?
By "countless," I just mean "it's happened so often I can't actually tell you how many." But the complaints weren't like your examples. More like painful confessions about how they're jealous of me and, at the very least, wish they'd waited to have their kids, and the reasons were always about how they felt consumed by their role as a mother and that they didn't have any individuality or identity left outside of it. The kind of stuff that you don't share with fellow parents because you'd be afraid of being judged by them.
I don't think for a second that they'd happily give up their kids to live my lifestyle, which is not nearly as glamorous as they seem to think, but I also don't think it's the "glamor" they're after, but the sense of self they feel has been missing for so long. Although one girl straight up said, "while I love him more than anything, I should've had an abortion." None of them truly want to go back to before the kids existed, but their complaints have a different and more existential tenor to them.
I think these were probably low moments for these women who just needed some sympathy and to be reminded of who they were, and I am going to his this is very normal, but it's definitely a real thing that is separate from the expected and fairly good-natured complaining that anyone would understand. It might be worth recognizing that for a lot of mothers, this experience is going to be different than those of a lot of fathers, and those mothers may not open up to the fathers (or men) in the same way. I think it's honestly kind of a unique thing women without kids hear because they know their feelings are generally safe with us because we don't have our own kids whose existence we automatically feel the maternal urge to defend in conversations like that, and we'll more naturally be able to sympathize with them as a result.
I can totally understand the part about motherhood consuming any form of individuality or personality. While we haven't reached that age yet, I do get the sense that once the kids are older, both parents suddenly lose "parent" as their primary identification/title and start to live life again, so to speak.
As a dad, I insist that men need to actively participate in parenting and house chores to ensure that their wives are not left feeling like milk cows or unpaid maids or unappreciated daycare workers. If you're not changing every diaper, you're failing as a father.
I appreciate your perspective and insistence on the importance of men's and fathers' roles here! It's so important for everyone in the family, including the dad.
I think the first year is hard for parents to adjust- especially mothers. Its literally a clinical condition, post partum depression. I believe you that countless of your frienda have experienced it.
I think after the first year, the vibes of Drunk Wiscy's post are on point. It gets easier and more natural. It is pretty close to no parent who would think of getting rid of their opinionated, tantrum ridden, snot nosed toddler or opinionated tantrum ridden, pimple faced teenager.
It is both the hardest thing to do and also easier than anyone on the outside thinks it is. It is incredibly rewarding in a way I didn't think was explainable but this post does a great job of. You do lose some sense of self but you gain a different sense and you miss the old self but the trade feels worth it. And natural.
My colleague literally told me last week that he would be fine going back to his child-free life. That it was fine the kid was here, but he didn't feel like his pre-kid life was of lesser quality or worse. If you're "bored" with life, a kid is among the myriad things you can do with your time. It's not necessarily the superior option.
I disagree on the "not that hard" part while I definitely agree that "standards are too high". Our standards for raising kids are incredibly unreasonable now. (Look forward to getting your kids to read in kindergarten and bs busy work assignments early on) I'd be surprised if there are a lot of parents who think having kids isn't rewarding. Maybe that's the high standards problem all over again.
I’m pretty sure the “not that hard” part only applies to the man. You can dip in and out of your kids’ lives as much as you want without much consequences (for you). Women have a much harder time and I know many who are struggling right now.
On the “kids are resilient” thing, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes at that part. On the one hand, yes. Kids are resilient as long as you actually meet their needs and raise them well. But on the other hand, the only people I’ve ever known to use that phrase are people who either abused or neglected their kids. My Dad used to say it whether people asked whether he was worried about the impact his adultery might have on his kids. I can tell you right now, I was not resilient. It seriously messed me up.
But on the whole I get your point. If someone is genuinely worried about whether they will be a good parent, then there’s a 99% chance that they will be. But the flip side is that there are many people who are entirely nonchalant about being a good parent, and they have the capacity to really mess up the next generation.
I appreciate this because this was my attitude when my partner and I decided to have a kid. Only it has been way, way harder than I thought it would be. My child is disabled enough that school isn’t an adequate option, but not disabled enough for the government to pay me to stay home and take care of him. So we make it work with one income and credit card debt but I still struggle with feeling purposeless and invisible. I wish I knew how little support families with disabled kids receive before I had a child.
A lot of people in these comments missed the point of the article. They were all depressed, neurotic messes before they had kids, yet they blame having kids for their problems
I wish more people would understand that. Unfortunately, one needs up to give up illusion of control, with which we are so obsessed in our quest for happiness. Truth is that there is no “stable environment” to raise kids in. World is chaotic and will always be.
This is a load of bull. Having kids is very hard. Even if you cut corners. I waited till I thought I was ready only to discover I still wasn’t really ready. I am *still* not ready and may never be, even though I’ve now had kids for more than a decade. Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t
If you’ll ‘never be ready’ having had kids for a decade then that kind of proves the article’s point doesn’t it? I.e that the concept of readiness is not well calibrated in this context. You’ve had kids and (presumably) loved them and done your best to be a good parent for the last 10 years - so you were ready!
Whether you enjoy parenting is a different question from whether you are ready to be a parent. It’s not possible to know how you feel about it until you do it
I'm fascinated and curious. For research purposes, please help me with these questions.
1. "Did you notice the "absolutely miserable" question in my comment?
2. Was your decision not to respond to it deliberate or passive (i.e. did you consider it and decide not to?)
3. The "definitely" in my second sentence was used to modify "enjoying the experience" to show that it is being understated for emphasis. e.g. "I'm definitely not in the market for a second wife" = "I really don't want a second wife".
Did you catch that or is it a linguistic trick only I know?
4. The original commenter said, "Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t". What do you think this reveals about his state in his parenting relationship?
a. very happy
b somewhat happy
c. neutral
d. somewhat unhappy
e. very unhappy
Thanks, in advance for helping me with my study of people. These responses better understand how to interact with normal people.
Mixed thoughts here. I was objectively and quantifiably not ready to be a father when I became one, lacking the emotional maturity, financial security or even the basic understanding of my own sexuality. It turned out to be quite the mess. But they made it to adulthood and are decent people so there’s that. Plus there’s the bonus of achieving empty nest at 50.
As a mother to 3 who would never ever give them up, that 3rd option is very very real. I read years ago (wish I could link but can’t sorry) that it’s like 10%. That’s a very high rate of regret for something you will have to deal with literally forever. I can very very much understand someone taking their time with that kind of a decision.
And I also definitely experience existential dread and anxiety. Now it’s just “did I make a mistake creating life in a world slowly burning itself all around me???”
"There are adults walking around today that lived through all sorts of things — moving countries, living through car accidents, being bullied, failing school — and they grew up to be alright. They wake up in the morning and go to work and pay their bills"
That's a pretty low standard you have there. A bullied kid waking up in the morning and going to work isn't the same as being ok. It's not even the absolute minimum. You also need to add "don't regularly think about offing yourself". Then, that's a kid that made it.
Generally, I'm getting the impression that you had a good childhood, did all you wanted in adulthood, then had kids when you got bored. Now, you're trying to convince people who aren't there yet that they actually are there. Or that they should have kids before they get there because you imagine that you should have done the same.
Also echoing the comments saying that stuff will be differrent for mothers than for fathers. Every mother in my friend group has dropped out of the workforce. In a few years they'll be wondering where their sense of self went. How's your wife doing?
Maybe you’re ready for a best case scenario, but if you’re lacking on time, income, or mental stability, a disabled child will rock your world and you’ll have a very hard time ensuring them even a fraction of the quality of life they otherwise would have had. Or, dare I say even worse, the prospect of a healthy child becoming seriously ill or disabled. May not be likely, but is always possible. And perhaps then you would have wished you waited.
"There is no third option where you have a kid and regret it."
Countless mothers I know have told me otherwise, ashamed of admitting it out loud. Those of us without kids hear this very frequently, actually.
Are you sure that they we're just venting or complaining? I mean, "countless" is a lot. I know lots of moms and dads, but I've never heard anything remotely similar to that once. I have heard a lot of complaining, though.
I think this is something else I need to write about. Parents will bitch and moan with other parents, sometimes never saying anything positive, because they understand that everyone in the conversation is on the same page. They understand that they all love their kids and wouldn't give them up for anything. When talking to non-parents it can suddenly change. The complaints disappear and all they want to talk about is how great it is to be a parent and gush about their kids. Maybe the moms you know assumed they weren't going to be taken literally when they said "I'm gonna throw this fuckin' guy out a window if he bites my boob one more time..."?
By "countless," I just mean "it's happened so often I can't actually tell you how many." But the complaints weren't like your examples. More like painful confessions about how they're jealous of me and, at the very least, wish they'd waited to have their kids, and the reasons were always about how they felt consumed by their role as a mother and that they didn't have any individuality or identity left outside of it. The kind of stuff that you don't share with fellow parents because you'd be afraid of being judged by them.
I don't think for a second that they'd happily give up their kids to live my lifestyle, which is not nearly as glamorous as they seem to think, but I also don't think it's the "glamor" they're after, but the sense of self they feel has been missing for so long. Although one girl straight up said, "while I love him more than anything, I should've had an abortion." None of them truly want to go back to before the kids existed, but their complaints have a different and more existential tenor to them.
I think these were probably low moments for these women who just needed some sympathy and to be reminded of who they were, and I am going to his this is very normal, but it's definitely a real thing that is separate from the expected and fairly good-natured complaining that anyone would understand. It might be worth recognizing that for a lot of mothers, this experience is going to be different than those of a lot of fathers, and those mothers may not open up to the fathers (or men) in the same way. I think it's honestly kind of a unique thing women without kids hear because they know their feelings are generally safe with us because we don't have our own kids whose existence we automatically feel the maternal urge to defend in conversations like that, and we'll more naturally be able to sympathize with them as a result.
I can totally understand the part about motherhood consuming any form of individuality or personality. While we haven't reached that age yet, I do get the sense that once the kids are older, both parents suddenly lose "parent" as their primary identification/title and start to live life again, so to speak.
As a dad, I insist that men need to actively participate in parenting and house chores to ensure that their wives are not left feeling like milk cows or unpaid maids or unappreciated daycare workers. If you're not changing every diaper, you're failing as a father.
I appreciate your perspective and insistence on the importance of men's and fathers' roles here! It's so important for everyone in the family, including the dad.
I think the first year is hard for parents to adjust- especially mothers. Its literally a clinical condition, post partum depression. I believe you that countless of your frienda have experienced it.
I think after the first year, the vibes of Drunk Wiscy's post are on point. It gets easier and more natural. It is pretty close to no parent who would think of getting rid of their opinionated, tantrum ridden, snot nosed toddler or opinionated tantrum ridden, pimple faced teenager.
It is both the hardest thing to do and also easier than anyone on the outside thinks it is. It is incredibly rewarding in a way I didn't think was explainable but this post does a great job of. You do lose some sense of self but you gain a different sense and you miss the old self but the trade feels worth it. And natural.
This always reminds me of idiocracy the rich married couple who are like “we can’t have kids! With the stock market is this way!?!”
And the dumb 18 yo football player had impregnated like 4 women and then the rich couple is infertile and crying.
“There are no parents who would choose to go back to being childless” and “There are no parents experiencing existential dread” are simply untrue.
My colleague literally told me last week that he would be fine going back to his child-free life. That it was fine the kid was here, but he didn't feel like his pre-kid life was of lesser quality or worse. If you're "bored" with life, a kid is among the myriad things you can do with your time. It's not necessarily the superior option.
I disagree on the "not that hard" part while I definitely agree that "standards are too high". Our standards for raising kids are incredibly unreasonable now. (Look forward to getting your kids to read in kindergarten and bs busy work assignments early on) I'd be surprised if there are a lot of parents who think having kids isn't rewarding. Maybe that's the high standards problem all over again.
I’m pretty sure the “not that hard” part only applies to the man. You can dip in and out of your kids’ lives as much as you want without much consequences (for you). Women have a much harder time and I know many who are struggling right now.
On the “kids are resilient” thing, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes at that part. On the one hand, yes. Kids are resilient as long as you actually meet their needs and raise them well. But on the other hand, the only people I’ve ever known to use that phrase are people who either abused or neglected their kids. My Dad used to say it whether people asked whether he was worried about the impact his adultery might have on his kids. I can tell you right now, I was not resilient. It seriously messed me up.
But on the whole I get your point. If someone is genuinely worried about whether they will be a good parent, then there’s a 99% chance that they will be. But the flip side is that there are many people who are entirely nonchalant about being a good parent, and they have the capacity to really mess up the next generation.
I appreciate this because this was my attitude when my partner and I decided to have a kid. Only it has been way, way harder than I thought it would be. My child is disabled enough that school isn’t an adequate option, but not disabled enough for the government to pay me to stay home and take care of him. So we make it work with one income and credit card debt but I still struggle with feeling purposeless and invisible. I wish I knew how little support families with disabled kids receive before I had a child.
A lot of people in these comments missed the point of the article. They were all depressed, neurotic messes before they had kids, yet they blame having kids for their problems
Absolutely spot on. Best experience you can ever have.
I wish more people would understand that. Unfortunately, one needs up to give up illusion of control, with which we are so obsessed in our quest for happiness. Truth is that there is no “stable environment” to raise kids in. World is chaotic and will always be.
This is a load of bull. Having kids is very hard. Even if you cut corners. I waited till I thought I was ready only to discover I still wasn’t really ready. I am *still* not ready and may never be, even though I’ve now had kids for more than a decade. Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t
If you’ll ‘never be ready’ having had kids for a decade then that kind of proves the article’s point doesn’t it? I.e that the concept of readiness is not well calibrated in this context. You’ve had kids and (presumably) loved them and done your best to be a good parent for the last 10 years - so you were ready!
But what if he's absolutely miserable? It definitely doesn't sound like he's enjoying the experience.
Whether you enjoy parenting is a different question from whether you are ready to be a parent. It’s not possible to know how you feel about it until you do it
I'm fascinated and curious. For research purposes, please help me with these questions.
1. "Did you notice the "absolutely miserable" question in my comment?
2. Was your decision not to respond to it deliberate or passive (i.e. did you consider it and decide not to?)
3. The "definitely" in my second sentence was used to modify "enjoying the experience" to show that it is being understated for emphasis. e.g. "I'm definitely not in the market for a second wife" = "I really don't want a second wife".
Did you catch that or is it a linguistic trick only I know?
4. The original commenter said, "Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t". What do you think this reveals about his state in his parenting relationship?
a. very happy
b somewhat happy
c. neutral
d. somewhat unhappy
e. very unhappy
Thanks, in advance for helping me with my study of people. These responses better understand how to interact with normal people.
Every word of this is truth.
Mixed thoughts here. I was objectively and quantifiably not ready to be a father when I became one, lacking the emotional maturity, financial security or even the basic understanding of my own sexuality. It turned out to be quite the mess. But they made it to adulthood and are decent people so there’s that. Plus there’s the bonus of achieving empty nest at 50.
As a mother to 3 who would never ever give them up, that 3rd option is very very real. I read years ago (wish I could link but can’t sorry) that it’s like 10%. That’s a very high rate of regret for something you will have to deal with literally forever. I can very very much understand someone taking their time with that kind of a decision.
And I also definitely experience existential dread and anxiety. Now it’s just “did I make a mistake creating life in a world slowly burning itself all around me???”
Subscribed.
"There are adults walking around today that lived through all sorts of things — moving countries, living through car accidents, being bullied, failing school — and they grew up to be alright. They wake up in the morning and go to work and pay their bills"
That's a pretty low standard you have there. A bullied kid waking up in the morning and going to work isn't the same as being ok. It's not even the absolute minimum. You also need to add "don't regularly think about offing yourself". Then, that's a kid that made it.
Generally, I'm getting the impression that you had a good childhood, did all you wanted in adulthood, then had kids when you got bored. Now, you're trying to convince people who aren't there yet that they actually are there. Or that they should have kids before they get there because you imagine that you should have done the same.
Also echoing the comments saying that stuff will be differrent for mothers than for fathers. Every mother in my friend group has dropped out of the workforce. In a few years they'll be wondering where their sense of self went. How's your wife doing?
Maybe you’re ready for a best case scenario, but if you’re lacking on time, income, or mental stability, a disabled child will rock your world and you’ll have a very hard time ensuring them even a fraction of the quality of life they otherwise would have had. Or, dare I say even worse, the prospect of a healthy child becoming seriously ill or disabled. May not be likely, but is always possible. And perhaps then you would have wished you waited.