Are you sure that they we're just venting or complaining? I mean, "countless" is a lot. I know lots of moms and dads, but I've never heard anything remotely similar to that once. I have heard a lot of complaining, though.
I think this is something else I need to write about. Parents will bitch and moan with other parents, sometimes never saying anything positive, because they understand that everyone in the conversation is on the same page. They understand that they all love their kids and wouldn't give them up for anything. When talking to non-parents it can suddenly change. The complaints disappear and all they want to talk about is how great it is to be a parent and gush about their kids. Maybe the moms you know assumed they weren't going to be taken literally when they said "I'm gonna throw this fuckin' guy out a window if he bites my boob one more time..."?
By "countless," I just mean "it's happened so often I can't actually tell you how many." But the complaints weren't like your examples. More like painful confessions about how they're jealous of me and, at the very least, wish they'd waited to have their kids, and the reasons were always about how they felt consumed by their role as a mother and that they didn't have any individuality or identity left outside of it. The kind of stuff that you don't share with fellow parents because you'd be afraid of being judged by them.
I don't think for a second that they'd happily give up their kids to live my lifestyle, which is not nearly as glamorous as they seem to think, but I also don't think it's the "glamor" they're after, but the sense of self they feel has been missing for so long. Although one girl straight up said, "while I love him more than anything, I should've had an abortion." None of them truly want to go back to before the kids existed, but their complaints have a different and more existential tenor to them.
I think these were probably low moments for these women who just needed some sympathy and to be reminded of who they were, and I am going to his this is very normal, but it's definitely a real thing that is separate from the expected and fairly good-natured complaining that anyone would understand. It might be worth recognizing that for a lot of mothers, this experience is going to be different than those of a lot of fathers, and those mothers may not open up to the fathers (or men) in the same way. I think it's honestly kind of a unique thing women without kids hear because they know their feelings are generally safe with us because we don't have our own kids whose existence we automatically feel the maternal urge to defend in conversations like that, and we'll more naturally be able to sympathize with them as a result.
I can totally understand the part about motherhood consuming any form of individuality or personality. While we haven't reached that age yet, I do get the sense that once the kids are older, both parents suddenly lose "parent" as their primary identification/title and start to live life again, so to speak.
As a dad, I insist that men need to actively participate in parenting and house chores to ensure that their wives are not left feeling like milk cows or unpaid maids or unappreciated daycare workers. If you're not changing every diaper, you're failing as a father.
I appreciate your perspective and insistence on the importance of men's and fathers' roles here! It's so important for everyone in the family, including the dad.
I mean, you brush your teeth and wipe your ass every day, for thousands of days (I hope?). You clean your dishes and your clothes. You take out the trash.
It’s a lot of work but it’s genuinely not that hard. It rapidly becomes just a thing you do, that honestly doesn’t even take all that much time. And it’s over in a couple years.
I think the first year is hard for parents to adjust- especially mothers. Its literally a clinical condition, post partum depression. I believe you that countless of your frienda have experienced it.
I think after the first year, the vibes of Drunk Wiscy's post are on point. It gets easier and more natural. It is pretty close to no parent who would think of getting rid of their opinionated, tantrum ridden, snot nosed toddler or opinionated tantrum ridden, pimple faced teenager.
It is both the hardest thing to do and also easier than anyone on the outside thinks it is. It is incredibly rewarding in a way I didn't think was explainable but this post does a great job of. You do lose some sense of self but you gain a different sense and you miss the old self but the trade feels worth it. And natural.
I worked in social services, there are a lot of parents who want to get rid of there pimply teenagers. Who will literally take them to the police or social services or a relative and say I'm not doing this anymore.
Geez I fear you missed the entire point. Of course there are terrible parents… this is written for the married, childless, middle to upper middle class young adults who are productive members of society, work out and say “just one more year of traveling” before they have kids. Once they do it they don’t know what they were scared of… their children don’t end up in social services. I was one of these people.
Except that job is going to be AI soon. And then you can’t pay the mortgage and your spouse can’t support the family and you are fighting and getting divorced and one of you moves to Cleveland and your children have to maintain two separate lives in two separate states.
So how are you going to weather that?
Meanwhile schools are overwhelmed with kids whose parents haven’t got a grip, or are insisting on taking the children to Disneyland during winter exams because it’s cheaper. The children’s skills are continuing to fall. And nobody will do homework.
So who in their right mind brings children into the world in these circumstances?
We have a Roman orgy for a political system that runs a conglomerate not a country.
Anybody with a modicum of discernment has to ask what kind of a future can a child look forward to here?
Before I had kids I was DJing at parties to hundreds of people, knew everyone in the underground electronic music scene in NYC and lived a fairly baller lifestyle that I wasn't able to maintain after having kids.
So I have been jealous of the friends who had a career in their thirties and had money to do awesome things, but I don't regret it.
In between my first marriage and my current marriage I dated a lot. It was the early days of internet dating, not the scan and swipe thing I have heard is big now. It was hopeful for many people rather than cynical. So it was easy to date a lot of women. Although it is sad to recall it, a fair number of divorced moms I dated expressed either direct or indirect regret about having had children. At first I was repulsed, but after I while I realized that motherhood is fucking hard on women.
I think for women it matters a lot who you have kids with because women tend to be ultimately responsible for those kids. Left holding the baby if everyone else leaves. I know a fair few women who don’t want kids, adamantly, until they meet the right guy and suddenly they are baby crazy.
Your divorced mom girlfriends probably regret the guy they had kids and now they can’t have their fairytale ending. No one goes out gunning for split households and a blended family. We all want our fairytale ending with an intact family, kids and a wonderful husband. Because they had kids with the wrong man, that’s no longer possible.
Half the childless, never married, upwardly mobile good men they meet don’t even want to date them because they don’t want to be stepfathers. And divorced men, well, lots of good men in there no doubt, but also lots of bad apples because divorced men as a group suffers from selection effect. Most likely, she’d have to be a stepmom. Which no one wants to be.
The best they can hope for is a blended family and those are very hard to get right. And even when they get it right, no one prefers it to a happy non-blended family. If they hadn’t had kids with those men, maybe that dream would still be achievable. I mean their dating pool would be more desirable AND larger.
I can tell you when I think these things it’s definitely during the low moments. I sometimes have reveries of “I should never have done this” or “I have too many kids” but thise don’t dominate my thoughts. But when they arise I am often desperate to tell someone and get validation. Maybe it’s just the overwhelm and the desperation. It feels like you really need to pee, weirdly enough. After you pee you don’t think about it. What I settle for is spew my poison all over an anonymous forum and then delete it afterwards. Like sorry. I contribute to the online toxicity. But at least the people in my life don’t hear these thoughts about my kids!
The internet is where I dump my deepest darkest thoughts so I can go back to being functional. Usually disposable reddit handles. Though AI is also a very good way to vent. Sometimes I just want to vent and feel like someone’s listening. I know with AI no one is actually listening, and that’s the goals. It FEELS like it is listening and it cares. But I’m not poisoning any real relationships. And I don’t let AI keep memories. These thoughts should be let out, and disappear into the void. IMO telling the people in your life is a mistake, unless you need real therapy. They know you. They know your kids. But they can get an incomplete picture if you vent to them. That’s why you also shouldn’t complain about your spouse to mutuals.
This is all so sad, but I have seen it and felt it from people I cared about. I feel like I am reliving some of that pain now. Which is fine. My life is so good that the only pain I feel most days is either minor physical pain or generalized societal pain over the political shitstorm we are living through. I just wish you the best going forward, whatever that means in your case.
I don’t think women commenting on their loss of identity is kept to discuss with only people without children. It’s a very common subject with most women with children ( who really get it and are never judgey )
Do they mostly have little kids? I think it eases up a lot once the kids are older but the little kids do take over everything, leaving nearly nothing for you in your own life
This may be because the current generations having children have tendencies to be self-centered, and parenting can be rather brutal in forcing you to put someone else first all the time.
I have never met anyone who thinks like this. My eldest is 50. I have met 100s, maybe 1000’s of parents. You know what I have heard dozens of times? ‘I should have had them sooner’.
I’m pretty sure the “not that hard” part only applies to the man. You can dip in and out of your kids’ lives as much as you want without much consequences (for you). Women have a much harder time and I know many who are struggling right now.
On the “kids are resilient” thing, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes at that part. On the one hand, yes. Kids are resilient as long as you actually meet their needs and raise them well. But on the other hand, the only people I’ve ever known to use that phrase are people who either abused or neglected their kids. My Dad used to say it whether people asked whether he was worried about the impact his adultery might have on his kids. I can tell you right now, I was not resilient. It seriously messed me up.
But on the whole I get your point. If someone is genuinely worried about whether they will be a good parent, then there’s a 99% chance that they will be. But the flip side is that there are many people who are entirely nonchalant about being a good parent, and they have the capacity to really mess up the next generation.
But this advice isn’t aimed at the shitty person looking for an excuse to continue being shitty. It’s aimed at the basically decent person who is terrified of being not ready / not good enough.
As a mother to 3 who would never ever give them up, that 3rd option is very very real. I read years ago (wish I could link but can’t sorry) that it’s like 10%. That’s a very high rate of regret for something you will have to deal with literally forever. I can very very much understand someone taking their time with that kind of a decision.
And I also definitely experience existential dread and anxiety. Now it’s just “did I make a mistake creating life in a world slowly burning itself all around me???”
"There are adults walking around today that lived through all sorts of things — moving countries, living through car accidents, being bullied, failing school — and they grew up to be alright. They wake up in the morning and go to work and pay their bills"
That's a pretty low standard you have there. A bullied kid waking up in the morning and going to work isn't the same as being ok. It's not even the absolute minimum. You also need to add "don't regularly think about offing yourself". Then, that's a kid that made it.
Generally, I'm getting the impression that you had a good childhood, did all you wanted in adulthood, then had kids when you got bored. Now, you're trying to convince people who aren't there yet that they actually are there. Or that they should have kids before they get there because you imagine that you should have done the same.
Also echoing the comments saying that stuff will be differrent for mothers than for fathers. Every mother in my friend group has dropped out of the workforce. In a few years they'll be wondering where their sense of self went. How's your wife doing?
A lot of people in these comments missed the point of the article. They were all depressed, neurotic messes before they had kids, yet they blame having kids for their problems
I appreciate this because this was my attitude when my partner and I decided to have a kid. Only it has been way, way harder than I thought it would be. My child is disabled enough that school isn’t an adequate option, but not disabled enough for the government to pay me to stay home and take care of him. So we make it work with one income and credit card debt but I still struggle with feeling purposeless and invisible. I wish I knew how little support families with disabled kids receive before I had a child.
I grew up diagnosed with autism in the early 80s, in a high expectations, low income, Asian immigrant family in NYC in the late 1900s, and my parents almost lost custody multiple times. I had a challenging time in special ed.
Articles like this only really work for people with easy kids. I wish everyone could have easy kids, rather than hard kids. But sometimes karma or God or whatever gives you a hard kid, and then you wish you'd prepared more. My parents definitely felt guilty and wish they'd prepared more.
This is a load of bull. Having kids is very hard. Even if you cut corners. I waited till I thought I was ready only to discover I still wasn’t really ready. I am *still* not ready and may never be, even though I’ve now had kids for more than a decade. Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t
If you’ll ‘never be ready’ having had kids for a decade then that kind of proves the article’s point doesn’t it? I.e that the concept of readiness is not well calibrated in this context. You’ve had kids and (presumably) loved them and done your best to be a good parent for the last 10 years - so you were ready!
Whether you enjoy parenting is a different question from whether you are ready to be a parent. It’s not possible to know how you feel about it until you do it
I'm fascinated and curious. For research purposes, please help me with these questions.
1. "Did you notice the "absolutely miserable" question in my comment?
2. Was your decision not to respond to it deliberate or passive (i.e. did you consider it and decide not to?)
3. The "definitely" in my second sentence was used to modify "enjoying the experience" to show that it is being understated for emphasis. e.g. "I'm definitely not in the market for a second wife" = "I really don't want a second wife".
Did you catch that or is it a linguistic trick only I know?
4. The original commenter said, "Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t". What do you think this reveals about his state in his parenting relationship?
a. very happy
b somewhat happy
c. neutral
d. somewhat unhappy
e. very unhappy
Thanks, in advance for helping me with my study of people. These responses better understand how to interact with normal people.
I am a father to four kids, and your article really nails it. Kids are absolutely wonderful (they are also totally hilarious). Most contemporary dialogue around children makes parenthood sound like a gulag - I have literally never found it to be the case. And I work from home, almost always in the same room as my kids. My life would be a good deal sadder, more empty, and significantly less funny if my kids weren’t in it.
The comment section, unfortunately, resembles every internet discussion I have ever seen on parenthood and birth rates. Just a constant stream of brigading by people who hate/fear the idea of kids, parenthood and really, really want to redirect the conversation towards their personal problems. Humanity is sometimes like a bucket of crabs - whenever a crab tries to climb out of the bucket, the other crabs pull him/her back down.
I disagree on the "not that hard" part while I definitely agree that "standards are too high". Our standards for raising kids are incredibly unreasonable now. (Look forward to getting your kids to read in kindergarten and bs busy work assignments early on) I'd be surprised if there are a lot of parents who think having kids isn't rewarding. Maybe that's the high standards problem all over again.
It’s probably because people are using different definitions of “hard”.
Parenting is hard work. But it isn’t “hard” in the sense of requiring superhuman talent or intelligence or wealth or whatever it is that basically decent people with their shit more or less together wouldn’t possess by default.
Yeah it’s weird, I almost think sometimes that I feel ‘rewarded’ or happy parenting my children *in defiance* of other people/society. Like every ‘expert’ and voice of authority in culture is constantly pushing the unrealistic standards, and I can’t take any pride or satisfaction in being a mom when I’m always doing everything wrong or not good enough. You really just have to tune all that out I guess. I so appreciate this article!
"there are no parents with existential dread" is an insane thing to say lol. I've seen my parents go thru it, they've talked about it with me; i've seen other parents go thru much worse.
It does still seem true that having kids can and often does cut down on such things, but it is by no means absolute or guaranteed.
Likewise with not messing up your kids or being a good parent. Yes, most people will not mess up their kids in a Huge, Life-Destroying way, most people will be fine or pretty good parents, but many will not, and it is simply not obvious or clearly predictable what will happen with any particular individual. Its a numbers game.
Doesnt mean you shouldnt play, but dont be naive about the risks.
IMHO, the complain about how hard it is, how tired they are, etc, and then say "You just wait" or "When are you having kids?" The best theory I have is that unhappy people want others to join in the unhappiness. OR they want credit for doing something that bajillions of people have done since the dawn of time.
For the inevitable commenters who will say I hate my parents or whatever, my mom and dad are great, and I love them very much.
I am a teacher and I see a LOT of parents and a lot of parenting. Some kids are easy. Some kids require constant intervention and probably won’t be successful functioning adults unless they seriously turn themselves around. Some parents have their kids in three sports and tutoring and extra activities. Some parents have their kids raise their other kids. Dads have it easy, generally. Moms have it hard, or very hard. Exceptions exist. But not all kids are built equally.
"There is no third option where you have a kid and regret it."
Countless mothers I know have told me otherwise, ashamed of admitting it out loud. Those of us without kids hear this very frequently, actually.
Are you sure that they we're just venting or complaining? I mean, "countless" is a lot. I know lots of moms and dads, but I've never heard anything remotely similar to that once. I have heard a lot of complaining, though.
I think this is something else I need to write about. Parents will bitch and moan with other parents, sometimes never saying anything positive, because they understand that everyone in the conversation is on the same page. They understand that they all love their kids and wouldn't give them up for anything. When talking to non-parents it can suddenly change. The complaints disappear and all they want to talk about is how great it is to be a parent and gush about their kids. Maybe the moms you know assumed they weren't going to be taken literally when they said "I'm gonna throw this fuckin' guy out a window if he bites my boob one more time..."?
By "countless," I just mean "it's happened so often I can't actually tell you how many." But the complaints weren't like your examples. More like painful confessions about how they're jealous of me and, at the very least, wish they'd waited to have their kids, and the reasons were always about how they felt consumed by their role as a mother and that they didn't have any individuality or identity left outside of it. The kind of stuff that you don't share with fellow parents because you'd be afraid of being judged by them.
I don't think for a second that they'd happily give up their kids to live my lifestyle, which is not nearly as glamorous as they seem to think, but I also don't think it's the "glamor" they're after, but the sense of self they feel has been missing for so long. Although one girl straight up said, "while I love him more than anything, I should've had an abortion." None of them truly want to go back to before the kids existed, but their complaints have a different and more existential tenor to them.
I think these were probably low moments for these women who just needed some sympathy and to be reminded of who they were, and I am going to his this is very normal, but it's definitely a real thing that is separate from the expected and fairly good-natured complaining that anyone would understand. It might be worth recognizing that for a lot of mothers, this experience is going to be different than those of a lot of fathers, and those mothers may not open up to the fathers (or men) in the same way. I think it's honestly kind of a unique thing women without kids hear because they know their feelings are generally safe with us because we don't have our own kids whose existence we automatically feel the maternal urge to defend in conversations like that, and we'll more naturally be able to sympathize with them as a result.
I can totally understand the part about motherhood consuming any form of individuality or personality. While we haven't reached that age yet, I do get the sense that once the kids are older, both parents suddenly lose "parent" as their primary identification/title and start to live life again, so to speak.
As a dad, I insist that men need to actively participate in parenting and house chores to ensure that their wives are not left feeling like milk cows or unpaid maids or unappreciated daycare workers. If you're not changing every diaper, you're failing as a father.
I appreciate your perspective and insistence on the importance of men's and fathers' roles here! It's so important for everyone in the family, including the dad.
DW: “Parenting is not that hard!”
Also DW: “you need to change every single one of thousands of diapers, over years, or you’re a bad father!”
Yes
I mean, you brush your teeth and wipe your ass every day, for thousands of days (I hope?). You clean your dishes and your clothes. You take out the trash.
It’s a lot of work but it’s genuinely not that hard. It rapidly becomes just a thing you do, that honestly doesn’t even take all that much time. And it’s over in a couple years.
I think the first year is hard for parents to adjust- especially mothers. Its literally a clinical condition, post partum depression. I believe you that countless of your frienda have experienced it.
I think after the first year, the vibes of Drunk Wiscy's post are on point. It gets easier and more natural. It is pretty close to no parent who would think of getting rid of their opinionated, tantrum ridden, snot nosed toddler or opinionated tantrum ridden, pimple faced teenager.
It is both the hardest thing to do and also easier than anyone on the outside thinks it is. It is incredibly rewarding in a way I didn't think was explainable but this post does a great job of. You do lose some sense of self but you gain a different sense and you miss the old self but the trade feels worth it. And natural.
I worked in social services, there are a lot of parents who want to get rid of there pimply teenagers. Who will literally take them to the police or social services or a relative and say I'm not doing this anymore.
Geez I fear you missed the entire point. Of course there are terrible parents… this is written for the married, childless, middle to upper middle class young adults who are productive members of society, work out and say “just one more year of traveling” before they have kids. Once they do it they don’t know what they were scared of… their children don’t end up in social services. I was one of these people.
Except that job is going to be AI soon. And then you can’t pay the mortgage and your spouse can’t support the family and you are fighting and getting divorced and one of you moves to Cleveland and your children have to maintain two separate lives in two separate states.
So how are you going to weather that?
Meanwhile schools are overwhelmed with kids whose parents haven’t got a grip, or are insisting on taking the children to Disneyland during winter exams because it’s cheaper. The children’s skills are continuing to fall. And nobody will do homework.
So who in their right mind brings children into the world in these circumstances?
We have a Roman orgy for a political system that runs a conglomerate not a country.
Anybody with a modicum of discernment has to ask what kind of a future can a child look forward to here?
Before I had kids I was DJing at parties to hundreds of people, knew everyone in the underground electronic music scene in NYC and lived a fairly baller lifestyle that I wasn't able to maintain after having kids.
So I have been jealous of the friends who had a career in their thirties and had money to do awesome things, but I don't regret it.
In between my first marriage and my current marriage I dated a lot. It was the early days of internet dating, not the scan and swipe thing I have heard is big now. It was hopeful for many people rather than cynical. So it was easy to date a lot of women. Although it is sad to recall it, a fair number of divorced moms I dated expressed either direct or indirect regret about having had children. At first I was repulsed, but after I while I realized that motherhood is fucking hard on women.
I think for women it matters a lot who you have kids with because women tend to be ultimately responsible for those kids. Left holding the baby if everyone else leaves. I know a fair few women who don’t want kids, adamantly, until they meet the right guy and suddenly they are baby crazy.
Your divorced mom girlfriends probably regret the guy they had kids and now they can’t have their fairytale ending. No one goes out gunning for split households and a blended family. We all want our fairytale ending with an intact family, kids and a wonderful husband. Because they had kids with the wrong man, that’s no longer possible.
Half the childless, never married, upwardly mobile good men they meet don’t even want to date them because they don’t want to be stepfathers. And divorced men, well, lots of good men in there no doubt, but also lots of bad apples because divorced men as a group suffers from selection effect. Most likely, she’d have to be a stepmom. Which no one wants to be.
The best they can hope for is a blended family and those are very hard to get right. And even when they get it right, no one prefers it to a happy non-blended family. If they hadn’t had kids with those men, maybe that dream would still be achievable. I mean their dating pool would be more desirable AND larger.
No, they're just terrible people.
I can tell you when I think these things it’s definitely during the low moments. I sometimes have reveries of “I should never have done this” or “I have too many kids” but thise don’t dominate my thoughts. But when they arise I am often desperate to tell someone and get validation. Maybe it’s just the overwhelm and the desperation. It feels like you really need to pee, weirdly enough. After you pee you don’t think about it. What I settle for is spew my poison all over an anonymous forum and then delete it afterwards. Like sorry. I contribute to the online toxicity. But at least the people in my life don’t hear these thoughts about my kids!
The internet is where I dump my deepest darkest thoughts so I can go back to being functional. Usually disposable reddit handles. Though AI is also a very good way to vent. Sometimes I just want to vent and feel like someone’s listening. I know with AI no one is actually listening, and that’s the goals. It FEELS like it is listening and it cares. But I’m not poisoning any real relationships. And I don’t let AI keep memories. These thoughts should be let out, and disappear into the void. IMO telling the people in your life is a mistake, unless you need real therapy. They know you. They know your kids. But they can get an incomplete picture if you vent to them. That’s why you also shouldn’t complain about your spouse to mutuals.
This is all so sad, but I have seen it and felt it from people I cared about. I feel like I am reliving some of that pain now. Which is fine. My life is so good that the only pain I feel most days is either minor physical pain or generalized societal pain over the political shitstorm we are living through. I just wish you the best going forward, whatever that means in your case.
I don’t think women commenting on their loss of identity is kept to discuss with only people without children. It’s a very common subject with most women with children ( who really get it and are never judgey )
Do they mostly have little kids? I think it eases up a lot once the kids are older but the little kids do take over everything, leaving nearly nothing for you in your own life
This may be because the current generations having children have tendencies to be self-centered, and parenting can be rather brutal in forcing you to put someone else first all the time.
I have never met anyone who thinks like this. My eldest is 50. I have met 100s, maybe 1000’s of parents. You know what I have heard dozens of times? ‘I should have had them sooner’.
I’m pretty sure the “not that hard” part only applies to the man. You can dip in and out of your kids’ lives as much as you want without much consequences (for you). Women have a much harder time and I know many who are struggling right now.
On the “kids are resilient” thing, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes at that part. On the one hand, yes. Kids are resilient as long as you actually meet their needs and raise them well. But on the other hand, the only people I’ve ever known to use that phrase are people who either abused or neglected their kids. My Dad used to say it whether people asked whether he was worried about the impact his adultery might have on his kids. I can tell you right now, I was not resilient. It seriously messed me up.
But on the whole I get your point. If someone is genuinely worried about whether they will be a good parent, then there’s a 99% chance that they will be. But the flip side is that there are many people who are entirely nonchalant about being a good parent, and they have the capacity to really mess up the next generation.
But this advice isn’t aimed at the shitty person looking for an excuse to continue being shitty. It’s aimed at the basically decent person who is terrified of being not ready / not good enough.
Thank you for offering the proof of what he was talking about
Wow, that’s some sexist bullshit.
As a mother to 3 who would never ever give them up, that 3rd option is very very real. I read years ago (wish I could link but can’t sorry) that it’s like 10%. That’s a very high rate of regret for something you will have to deal with literally forever. I can very very much understand someone taking their time with that kind of a decision.
And I also definitely experience existential dread and anxiety. Now it’s just “did I make a mistake creating life in a world slowly burning itself all around me???”
"There are adults walking around today that lived through all sorts of things — moving countries, living through car accidents, being bullied, failing school — and they grew up to be alright. They wake up in the morning and go to work and pay their bills"
That's a pretty low standard you have there. A bullied kid waking up in the morning and going to work isn't the same as being ok. It's not even the absolute minimum. You also need to add "don't regularly think about offing yourself". Then, that's a kid that made it.
Generally, I'm getting the impression that you had a good childhood, did all you wanted in adulthood, then had kids when you got bored. Now, you're trying to convince people who aren't there yet that they actually are there. Or that they should have kids before they get there because you imagine that you should have done the same.
Also echoing the comments saying that stuff will be differrent for mothers than for fathers. Every mother in my friend group has dropped out of the workforce. In a few years they'll be wondering where their sense of self went. How's your wife doing?
This is such an aggressively privileged male perspective it’s comical.
I’ve alway joked that I would be happy to have kids if I can be the dad and not the mom.
💯
A lot of people in these comments missed the point of the article. They were all depressed, neurotic messes before they had kids, yet they blame having kids for their problems
I appreciate this because this was my attitude when my partner and I decided to have a kid. Only it has been way, way harder than I thought it would be. My child is disabled enough that school isn’t an adequate option, but not disabled enough for the government to pay me to stay home and take care of him. So we make it work with one income and credit card debt but I still struggle with feeling purposeless and invisible. I wish I knew how little support families with disabled kids receive before I had a child.
I grew up diagnosed with autism in the early 80s, in a high expectations, low income, Asian immigrant family in NYC in the late 1900s, and my parents almost lost custody multiple times. I had a challenging time in special ed.
Articles like this only really work for people with easy kids. I wish everyone could have easy kids, rather than hard kids. But sometimes karma or God or whatever gives you a hard kid, and then you wish you'd prepared more. My parents definitely felt guilty and wish they'd prepared more.
This!! Home educating disabled kids is way harder with less help than I anticipated
This is a load of bull. Having kids is very hard. Even if you cut corners. I waited till I thought I was ready only to discover I still wasn’t really ready. I am *still* not ready and may never be, even though I’ve now had kids for more than a decade. Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t
If you’ll ‘never be ready’ having had kids for a decade then that kind of proves the article’s point doesn’t it? I.e that the concept of readiness is not well calibrated in this context. You’ve had kids and (presumably) loved them and done your best to be a good parent for the last 10 years - so you were ready!
But what if he's absolutely miserable? It definitely doesn't sound like he's enjoying the experience.
Whether you enjoy parenting is a different question from whether you are ready to be a parent. It’s not possible to know how you feel about it until you do it
I'm fascinated and curious. For research purposes, please help me with these questions.
1. "Did you notice the "absolutely miserable" question in my comment?
2. Was your decision not to respond to it deliberate or passive (i.e. did you consider it and decide not to?)
3. The "definitely" in my second sentence was used to modify "enjoying the experience" to show that it is being understated for emphasis. e.g. "I'm definitely not in the market for a second wife" = "I really don't want a second wife".
Did you catch that or is it a linguistic trick only I know?
4. The original commenter said, "Having kids is the hardest thing you’ll ever do, and you’ll have a significantly easier (and probably happier and more productive) life if you don’t". What do you think this reveals about his state in his parenting relationship?
a. very happy
b somewhat happy
c. neutral
d. somewhat unhappy
e. very unhappy
Thanks, in advance for helping me with my study of people. These responses better understand how to interact with normal people.
Sounds like a personal problem.
I am a father to four kids, and your article really nails it. Kids are absolutely wonderful (they are also totally hilarious). Most contemporary dialogue around children makes parenthood sound like a gulag - I have literally never found it to be the case. And I work from home, almost always in the same room as my kids. My life would be a good deal sadder, more empty, and significantly less funny if my kids weren’t in it.
The comment section, unfortunately, resembles every internet discussion I have ever seen on parenthood and birth rates. Just a constant stream of brigading by people who hate/fear the idea of kids, parenthood and really, really want to redirect the conversation towards their personal problems. Humanity is sometimes like a bucket of crabs - whenever a crab tries to climb out of the bucket, the other crabs pull him/her back down.
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I disagree on the "not that hard" part while I definitely agree that "standards are too high". Our standards for raising kids are incredibly unreasonable now. (Look forward to getting your kids to read in kindergarten and bs busy work assignments early on) I'd be surprised if there are a lot of parents who think having kids isn't rewarding. Maybe that's the high standards problem all over again.
It’s probably because people are using different definitions of “hard”.
Parenting is hard work. But it isn’t “hard” in the sense of requiring superhuman talent or intelligence or wealth or whatever it is that basically decent people with their shit more or less together wouldn’t possess by default.
💯
Yeah it’s weird, I almost think sometimes that I feel ‘rewarded’ or happy parenting my children *in defiance* of other people/society. Like every ‘expert’ and voice of authority in culture is constantly pushing the unrealistic standards, and I can’t take any pride or satisfaction in being a mom when I’m always doing everything wrong or not good enough. You really just have to tune all that out I guess. I so appreciate this article!
This always reminds me of idiocracy the rich married couple who are like “we can’t have kids! With the stock market is this way!?!”
And the dumb 18 yo football player had impregnated like 4 women and then the rich couple is infertile and crying.
"there are no parents with existential dread" is an insane thing to say lol. I've seen my parents go thru it, they've talked about it with me; i've seen other parents go thru much worse.
It does still seem true that having kids can and often does cut down on such things, but it is by no means absolute or guaranteed.
Likewise with not messing up your kids or being a good parent. Yes, most people will not mess up their kids in a Huge, Life-Destroying way, most people will be fine or pretty good parents, but many will not, and it is simply not obvious or clearly predictable what will happen with any particular individual. Its a numbers game.
Doesnt mean you shouldnt play, but dont be naive about the risks.
Started reading until I realized this was written from a man’s perspective.
Hmm both my kids have hidden disabilities and parenting is way way harder than I thought it would be.
IMHO, the complain about how hard it is, how tired they are, etc, and then say "You just wait" or "When are you having kids?" The best theory I have is that unhappy people want others to join in the unhappiness. OR they want credit for doing something that bajillions of people have done since the dawn of time.
For the inevitable commenters who will say I hate my parents or whatever, my mom and dad are great, and I love them very much.
I am a teacher and I see a LOT of parents and a lot of parenting. Some kids are easy. Some kids require constant intervention and probably won’t be successful functioning adults unless they seriously turn themselves around. Some parents have their kids in three sports and tutoring and extra activities. Some parents have their kids raise their other kids. Dads have it easy, generally. Moms have it hard, or very hard. Exceptions exist. But not all kids are built equally.